I was lucky to get over this in my mid-twenties when I converted to Islam. I found that the laissez-faire attitude of morality or do no harm principle or tolerance of everything except intolerance really just makes wishy washy men who tolerate (nearly anything) unless it directly harms them.
With relationships its easy to let a lot go or leave a lot unsaid because if no one is hurt by it, then why rock the boat and risk capsizing the ship. Islam gave me an ideal to work towards and hard red lines set by God that I had no right trespassing or allowing a future spouse to trespass. I finished grad school and within 2 years I was married, within 3 I was a father. I got what I always wanted, but only when I knew what to ask for and what to stand firm on. All praise is to God!
It seems many find massive value in ideology. For you, it’s Islam. For others, it’s AA. The latter and secular Buddhism have been part of how I tend to look at the world, but there are so many to consider.
There are so many, I’ll not even try to name them. Suffice it to say, ideologies gives us so much of what we need as humans: identity, purpose, value, but also boundaries. From boundaries, we can derive so many of our wants because boundaries define what we don’t want, the opposite can become clearer.
What you’re describing in the hockey story sounds like a boy trying to create closeness the only way he knew how. The tickling wasn’t aggression so much as an awkward attempt at connection when he didn’t have the words. Women often interpret those bids as harassment or immaturity, sometimes correctly, but sometimes what we're actually encountering is a person with genuine feeling and zero emotional vocabulary. That matters, even when the impact is the same.
It’s true that I lacked any of necessary emotional vocabulary for intimacy at that age. Sadly, I was 22. This seems a little late to still be confused from where I sit today, but what do I know?
Also, I appreciate your perspective, Neela. I appreciate that you show up. Thank you.
You're pointing to something next level, Stephanie. I dig it.
For the men I am in contact with, just identifying what the hell they want is like opening a tight jar with oily fingers. This is where I am meeting them.
Ultimately, we each have to surrender it all in the end. The sooner we can get there, the less we can feel attached, the less we'll feel we need to protect.
Hey, Scott! Thank you for being here and for contributing a verse. This is the work as I see it.
Your comment about “feel chosen” immediately brought me back to kickball in grade school. I can feel a part there worth exploring. Thank you for pointing to it.
Fascinating, and to this man, relevant. I'm still learning what I want, especially in the domain of intimate relationships with women. Then, I'm learning to state my wants, and understanding when or if it is wise to do so. Sometimes the story I tell is that I'm protecting the other from me being "too much". Really, I'm protecting myself from rejection, awkwardness, and potential harm. Growing up in the environments I grew up in certainly conditioned me to feel like asking what I wanted was not safe or liable to be reciprocated. I still remember asking my father if I could do martial arts and Boy Scouts. His "no" is still the loudest no I hear inside myself when I'm in my more self-critical places.
It's hard these days because we are not only mired in these covert contracts, but we're also melting cultural contracts that used to act as substrate, or structure, for how we make requests in the first place. To your point about "men always make the first move" - do we? I recently had coffee with a female friend on International Women's Day. My comment: "I'm not sure if it's more feminist to pay for your coffee or not pay." Her response: "To make that more complicated, you would also have to weigh knowing that I'm broke with knowing that my Bulgarian culture means that I like to always treat my friends as a form of hospitality." To which I responded, "Fuck, there really is no right answer, is there?"
Nope, there is just trying to lead from the heart, doing your best, reflecting honestly, repairing ruptures, and moving forward into the uncertainty together.
“I still remember asking my father if I could do martial arts and Boy Scouts. His "no" is still the loudest no I hear inside myself when I'm in my more self-critical places.”
Obviously, there’s context under that, but I appreciate how you’re highlighting the ways we learn to receive love from an early age. Neither of us believes the answer has to always be yes, not for adults or children, but I’ll bet there’s granularity and background in that story that would tease out why it echoes into adulthood.
To your query about my claim men always needing to make the first move, of course that’s not an empirical claim. I like your anecdote, though. Anything to disabuse me of this belief is welcome.
I think the nuanced, adult approach to no to a child is more wisely "no, but -" with a move to collaborate on meeting halfway in some manner. That's what I missed when I was younger. A sense that there may have been practical reasons we couldn't do those things right now (money, time, bandwidth) but that there was an acknowledgment that I was ready to explore some expressions and a plan to get there at some point. I know this will be my stance as a father. But that no became something I launched at myself over and over again, dulling connection to deeper signals around desire. I learned to live in "life poverty" that mirrored the real poverty I experienced growing up.
Of course, "first move" happens regardless of sex, orientation, culture, etc in real life. I think it's wise to distinguish what actually happens versus cultural agreements around what should happen. Those agreements tend to create the unnecessary tension in how we relate to each other, in my opinion.
Nicely said, JJ. You're right. Children deserve their dignity as much as adults. Something more than a cold "no" is warranted in this situation, if for no other reason, to teach the child how to communicate with others.
Not an explanation, not necessarily, but some dialogue exploring why a child wants something, asking what it means to them, and then yeah. Talk about pathways.
I was lucky to get over this in my mid-twenties when I converted to Islam. I found that the laissez-faire attitude of morality or do no harm principle or tolerance of everything except intolerance really just makes wishy washy men who tolerate (nearly anything) unless it directly harms them.
With relationships its easy to let a lot go or leave a lot unsaid because if no one is hurt by it, then why rock the boat and risk capsizing the ship. Islam gave me an ideal to work towards and hard red lines set by God that I had no right trespassing or allowing a future spouse to trespass. I finished grad school and within 2 years I was married, within 3 I was a father. I got what I always wanted, but only when I knew what to ask for and what to stand firm on. All praise is to God!
For sure, Mason. Thank you for this reflection.
It seems many find massive value in ideology. For you, it’s Islam. For others, it’s AA. The latter and secular Buddhism have been part of how I tend to look at the world, but there are so many to consider.
There are so many, I’ll not even try to name them. Suffice it to say, ideologies gives us so much of what we need as humans: identity, purpose, value, but also boundaries. From boundaries, we can derive so many of our wants because boundaries define what we don’t want, the opposite can become clearer.
Glad I found this dude
Me too. Thank you, @Henny Hiemenz. 🙏
I have a perspective.
What you’re describing in the hockey story sounds like a boy trying to create closeness the only way he knew how. The tickling wasn’t aggression so much as an awkward attempt at connection when he didn’t have the words. Women often interpret those bids as harassment or immaturity, sometimes correctly, but sometimes what we're actually encountering is a person with genuine feeling and zero emotional vocabulary. That matters, even when the impact is the same.
Happy Tuesday Damon ....
It’s true that I lacked any of necessary emotional vocabulary for intimacy at that age. Sadly, I was 22. This seems a little late to still be confused from where I sit today, but what do I know?
Also, I appreciate your perspective, Neela. I appreciate that you show up. Thank you.
Reading this, what I see is how much of this is organized around protecting self-image.
And I’ve been in a relationship like that.
Where someone could be present, connected, even loving — right up until something real happened that challenged how they saw themselves.
And then everything reorganized around protecting that.
That’s the part that matters to me.
Because it’s not just about how someone asks for what they want.
It’s whether they can stay when their self-image is implicated.
Without that, none of this actually holds in relationship.
You're pointing to something next level, Stephanie. I dig it.
For the men I am in contact with, just identifying what the hell they want is like opening a tight jar with oily fingers. This is where I am meeting them.
Ultimately, we each have to surrender it all in the end. The sooner we can get there, the less we can feel attached, the less we'll feel we need to protect.
Thank you for sharing all of this. I found myself in so many of the beats. For me, I only recently realized that I was desperate to feel chosen.
Hey, Scott! Thank you for being here and for contributing a verse. This is the work as I see it.
Your comment about “feel chosen” immediately brought me back to kickball in grade school. I can feel a part there worth exploring. Thank you for pointing to it.
Fascinating, and to this man, relevant. I'm still learning what I want, especially in the domain of intimate relationships with women. Then, I'm learning to state my wants, and understanding when or if it is wise to do so. Sometimes the story I tell is that I'm protecting the other from me being "too much". Really, I'm protecting myself from rejection, awkwardness, and potential harm. Growing up in the environments I grew up in certainly conditioned me to feel like asking what I wanted was not safe or liable to be reciprocated. I still remember asking my father if I could do martial arts and Boy Scouts. His "no" is still the loudest no I hear inside myself when I'm in my more self-critical places.
It's hard these days because we are not only mired in these covert contracts, but we're also melting cultural contracts that used to act as substrate, or structure, for how we make requests in the first place. To your point about "men always make the first move" - do we? I recently had coffee with a female friend on International Women's Day. My comment: "I'm not sure if it's more feminist to pay for your coffee or not pay." Her response: "To make that more complicated, you would also have to weigh knowing that I'm broke with knowing that my Bulgarian culture means that I like to always treat my friends as a form of hospitality." To which I responded, "Fuck, there really is no right answer, is there?"
Nope, there is just trying to lead from the heart, doing your best, reflecting honestly, repairing ruptures, and moving forward into the uncertainty together.
“I still remember asking my father if I could do martial arts and Boy Scouts. His "no" is still the loudest no I hear inside myself when I'm in my more self-critical places.”
Obviously, there’s context under that, but I appreciate how you’re highlighting the ways we learn to receive love from an early age. Neither of us believes the answer has to always be yes, not for adults or children, but I’ll bet there’s granularity and background in that story that would tease out why it echoes into adulthood.
To your query about my claim men always needing to make the first move, of course that’s not an empirical claim. I like your anecdote, though. Anything to disabuse me of this belief is welcome.
I think the nuanced, adult approach to no to a child is more wisely "no, but -" with a move to collaborate on meeting halfway in some manner. That's what I missed when I was younger. A sense that there may have been practical reasons we couldn't do those things right now (money, time, bandwidth) but that there was an acknowledgment that I was ready to explore some expressions and a plan to get there at some point. I know this will be my stance as a father. But that no became something I launched at myself over and over again, dulling connection to deeper signals around desire. I learned to live in "life poverty" that mirrored the real poverty I experienced growing up.
Of course, "first move" happens regardless of sex, orientation, culture, etc in real life. I think it's wise to distinguish what actually happens versus cultural agreements around what should happen. Those agreements tend to create the unnecessary tension in how we relate to each other, in my opinion.
Nicely said, JJ. You're right. Children deserve their dignity as much as adults. Something more than a cold "no" is warranted in this situation, if for no other reason, to teach the child how to communicate with others.
Not an explanation, not necessarily, but some dialogue exploring why a child wants something, asking what it means to them, and then yeah. Talk about pathways.
Agreeeeed!